Beneath the Deck podcast

Transcript

Drew: Sometimes you need to deviate away from your chosen career path to ultimately get to where you really want to be. G'day, I'm Drew, and that perspective comes from someone who's had a remarkable career, largely because she did a lot of deviation along the way, and that ranged from engineering right through to commercial artistry. Wendy is now Through Life Support Director for the Hunter Class Frigate Program. It's a remarkably diverse role with significant responsibilities. To discuss those and how she ended up in this role, she joins me for this Beneath the Deck podcast. Thanks for your time, Wendy.
 
Wendy: Thanks Drew, appreciate the opportunity to have a chat. 
 
Drew: Wendy, I read a really nice line about the business that you're in, and it says, “engineering designs the ship, production builds the ship, and support systems bring the ship alive”. Is that what you do as a through life support director? 
 
Wendy: Yeah look, I think the support system team, or ILS integrated logistics, we bring everything together in regards to building, I guess, the training program to train the crew up. We design and implement all the maintenance and operating procedures, do all the technical manuals, all the spares, even to the point where we populate putting all the mattresses on board the ship, so down to the minute things to enable the ship to really be operational in its use. So yeah, we sort of do bring the ship to life. 
 
Drew: It's a funny thing. Wendy, me as a civilian looking at something like a warship, I just sort of would make the assumption that the Navy know how to operate the thing. But when you talk about it, I guess everything requires detailed manuals and documentation.
 
Wendy: Absolutely. I mean, certainly the Navy know how to operate a ship, but it's like anything. When you're given a new car, it's like you give them a new platform. We need to teach them the nuances of that particular platform. We certainly don't tell them how to operate it in theatre or when they're using it in daily use, but we certainly teach them how to use the new technology that we're providing to them.
 
Drew: And a lot of outfitting, I mean, you said down there, even to the mattresses, I guess that's life jackets, bedding. 
 
Wendy: Yeah, everything; knives and forks, cutlery, you know, everything that goes on the ship. One program, we had 1301 mattresses to put on board. So, my team actually installed all of those things that people don't think about but are really the most important things to the crew. 
 
Drew: They're obviously daily needs. But there's also, I guess, spares to carry, and you’ve got crews that have to be able to repair things in potentially crucial situations.
 
Wendy: That's, I think, really one of the interesting things about what I do now, or what I've been doing for probably 30 years in regards to support system engineering, is we problem solve. So, it is about, how do you maintain the ship? How do you maintain the ship when they're at sea? You have a limited amount of spares that we can hold on board, and also a limited amount of time for the crew to actually be able to do things. So, identifying what needs to be held on board, where it's held on board, is also another, another activity, but also the tools and all the equipment needed to do any of that maintenance as well. So, what we do a lot of is problem solving of ‘can it be done on board?’ Can we do it on board with the spares that we've got, and also, what's the ramifications if we don't?
 
Drew: Well, yes, significant ramifications, obviously, to say the least. But I imagine there's a lot of redundancy thinking in there.
 
Wendy: There is, and that's one of the things that we work with the engineers, very closely. And this is where, probably my engineering background is, why I enjoy doing what I do, is because we work with the engineers to design for support. So, engineers will design to meet an operational requirement. They don't often think about, how do I maintain that piece of kit? So, you know, the ability to be able to get in behind something to do regular maintenance, replace items, or even pull it apart. So, we do a lot of that with the engineering team at the moment to ensure that when we do get these things operational, that you can also maintain them for longevity. 
 
Drew: I imagine, though, that requires you to put yourself in place and when, let's say, an engine is fitted or a piece of equipment is fitted, and visualise that. We hear a lot about digital twins these days. Is that really important in this process? I mean, what is the digital twin for this and how does it work? 
 
Wendy: Technology has evolved significantly. We have 3D models now, so your ability to stand in a room and actually physically visualise what that compartment looks like, rather than the 2D drawings that, you know, 20 years ago we were using. So, your ability to actually sit there and redesign inside that 3D spatial model is brilliant. And the importance of the digital twin is to fully understand that when we're maintaining it through its operational life, is you can actually understand how it was built. Because even though it was designed one way, when you actually physically build it, you may have to modify things for you know, there's a variety of reasons, but also if parts change or there's obsolescence. So, understanding a digital twin to understand whenever we change something, to really understand the design model is really what we're about now. So, 3D modelling, and the introduction of technology has just made this so much more incredibly easy to do. And I'll say the logistics engineer of today and the logistics engineer of tomorrow are going to be two different people, because we are very much more in that digital space versus the traditional sort of doing it all on paper.
 
Drew: It's funny, you say that because I was reading in your background that you're a gamer, you're into your electronic games, but I understand also that's more than just relaxation for you, that that crosses over into this space somehow.
 
Wendy: Yeah, look, one of the programs I worked on, we actually developed a ship's walkthrough model. So, using one of the world's best gaming engines, we actually created an entire 3D version of the ship, which you could physically self-navigate around. So, the ability to understand how you were able to then absorb that information, which is what you do when you play games, you know you learn from spatial awareness where you are. It was an interesting dynamic for me to go, this is how this generation learns. Past generations we all learnt by you sort of got books, and then you actually did it by physically doing. This generation is more if you immerse them in it, they will learn. So, using that sort of technology. One, because it's safer and cheaper. Being able to train people in a very safe environment enables mistakes to be made with very small limit consequences, if you were to train people on physical equipment – one, you've always got the problem of you can damage the equipment, but more importantly, the individual could be harmed. So, it's a good crossover for me, plus it enables me to have conversations with a lot of my team members, and sort of breaks the ice a lot. 
 
Drew: It's a fascinating insight. Do you think that means that they learn potentially faster using these digital environments, because they're so hands on and realistic? 
 
Wendy: Oh, look, I think so even down to the concept of writing technical manuals. As an example, the technical manuals I used to write probably 20 odd years ago, very different to the technical manuals now, where we're trying to use a lot more of video enhancements, because that's the easier way for people to absorb information. And you know, that's again, this generation, that's how they're seeing everything.
 
Drew: You hear bits and pieces about virtual headsets and potential application for them in the field, let's say mining. You've got someone trying to fix a piece of equipment they don't know about, but if they put on the virtual headset and they've got a specialist 3000 kilometres away tuning into that, is that in your space as well?
 
Wendy: That's something we certainly have been looking at in my recent activities. When I was working in the research and development area, it was that ability to maintain equipment and what we would refer to as phone a friend. So, the ability, you know, if somebody couldn't maintain a piece of kit using a goggle or just a singular ocular lens, could they connect to somebody 1000s of miles away, a subject matter expert, to walk them through a problem space? Because they could see what they were seeing, and, you know, and you could connect up. Yes, it's in its infancy, but it is a space that we are looking at, and that's where I think for us, this sort of technology is where, you know, it excites a lot of the team members that I've got, because it is very cutting edge. It is very different. And as I said, you know, the team of yesterday compared to the team of the future are very different people.
 
Drew: It's such a high-tech space. What do you wish others in the organisation knew about what you and your team do? 
 
Wendy: For me, the hardest thing is getting people in to actually understand. One of the reasons why I like to use the term support system engineering. One, it gives a little bit more of a realisation that what we do is very much a profession. It is a, you know, a certified profession where, if I say integrated logistics support, many people consider us to be box packers, because they think of logistics. They think of transport, etc. Just trying to get people to understand how we bring everything together. We are probably the one part of the program who communicate with every aspect of the business. So, the engineering, the quality, the test and trials team, the supply chain, we need to interact with all of these guys, and they need to interact with us, because at the end of the day, we bring everything together to complete the ship.
 
Drew: It's funny there that box packing description, language is everything sometimes, isn't it, in terms of quickly putting a label on something. 
 
Wendy: Oh, absolutely. If I say, you know, integrated logistics support, people automatically think warehousing and, you know, and interestingly enough, I do have warehousing, because we obviously have to do spares and etc, even to the point where we mock up the storerooms so that we can load them out to make sure that we have optimum fit. But you say that, and as I said, people think warehousing, so trying to get people to actually look at this as a profession. Because, well, I mean, as you would have seen with my sort of career, it was a very different turn to get into this. And most of the team that I've got, it's actually their second career. So, a lot of personnel, when they left the military after 20, 25 years, it was a second career for them, because it was an easy transition out of the military into logistic support. There's a lot of avenues to look at within Support System Engineering, so just trying to get people interested in wanting to have a look in that space. And for me, trying to build the next generation of personnel is one of my key goals, certainly in my current role. 
 
Drew: Well, I have had a look at your CV, and bottom line, at least this is your third career, probably because you started out as a cadet, a mechanical engineer cadet.
 
Wendy: I was, I was, I won't say it was easy as a female, wanting to be an engineer in the mid 80s was not an easy activity. So, I was fortunate. I was able to get a cadetship. So, I didn't want to go straight to university. I preferred to learn and experience work at the same time. So, I was fortunate to get an opportunity where I worked and went to school half a day and two nights a week to do my engineering. And then from there, became a qualified engineer, did some more time there, and then couldn't find anything that really was enthusiastic from a promotion sort of point of view. So got into defence and took some very different career choices there. But again, for me, I think if there was one thing I could sort of explain to people, which is, when opportunities come, sometimes, don't discount an opportunity, because it's not what you plan to do, because it's amazing how you can actually end up being back on the same road you always wanted to be on. 
 
Drew: Well, that sounds like a line spoken from someone who certainly trod that path for want of a better description, because you did a bit of a sidestep, though you did a commercial art qualification in there.
 
Wendy: I did, one thing because, well, I'd always done art when I was younger, and I think it was just more of something to relax my brain. I still actually do it now. I do a lot of painting and whatnot because it just gives you that recourse to reset your brain, and the ability for you just to think of things differently. And amazingly, I was doing that just to again, give me just that sort of balance, you know, right left-brain type concept, and it's probably the reason why I enjoy playing video games as well. So, I did that. And then when I couldn't find a job that I enjoyed from an engineering perspective, I went into doing illustration work, which was not far disconnect, because it was all very much associated with engineering. So, my ability to understand engineering drawings, to turn them into illustrations, it was a very short leap, to be brutally honest, some people probably think a huge one, but not too much of a leap. 
 
Drew: And did that lead you to BAE? 
 
Wendy: Yes. So, I was an illustrator within a company. I was actually only the illustrator for six months, and someone could see that I had a little bit more skill set than just doing illustration. So, I became the technical publications manager. And then, the company I was working for was actually bought out by what was British Aerospace at the time, and then British Aerospace and GEC merged, so we became BAE Systems. So yes, that's how it started. And then I was doing technical publications. Was always sitting in on training. And then thought, you know what I could do training as well. So, I became the training manager, and then part of that was part of the integrated logistics support team, and just naturally grew from there.
Drew: Quite a bit of growth I would say. So, what do you reckon your biggest career highlight has been so far? 
 
Wendy: I'm extraordinarily lucky. I've had two opportunities in my career to build two programs, both vastly different from tendering to delivering the complete program. One was in an army radio system, but the LHD program, having seen that from negotiating the contract through to the first ship delivery, being able to be part of a team who built a state-of-the-art training facility as well was one of my highlights. I can look out and I can see that ship existing and for me, that's a clear highlight.
 
Drew: Sounds like you had a few challenges along the way too. What do you reckon the biggest challenge has been? 
 
Wendy: Yeah, look, I think one could obviously say being a female, being in engineering, that was probably a hardship in itself. For me, probably quite the other spin to that, which was my career had always been very much male dominated. So, working in a male, significantly male environment, was very comforting. For me, the biggest challenge I've had probably the last 10 or so years has been the abundance of additional females into programs. I actually had to readjust how I interacted, probably slightly different to what most people would consider but very comfortable in a male dominated environment. Now, having the different environment, it was something of a bit of a challenge for me.
 
Drew: Wendy, in recruiting the next generation of support systems engineers. Are you looking for broader and more diverse skills? Because it sounds like a role that is much more technologically focused?
 
Wendy: It is. I've actually had graduate engineers who have not thought that what we do is engineering. But again, it's not just engineering. You know, I am talking about computer graphic artists, ones and zeros will become the future. One of the key things that I'm very driven at the moment is understanding that data will be the key driver of this program. There's a lot of information, but how do you get that information? How do you get that information transferred across multiple systems? So, the types of people that I'm going to be looking for in the future are not your traditional engineers. Absolutely, I need those individuals in the team. But it's also more than that. It is the people that can do analytics, can write algorithms, those sort of things. So, it is a very vast field, and I guess, a very rich environment for people that want to learn, and may have some, I guess what we've referred to in the past as hobbies, which is then extended into being able to incorporate it into their daily work.
 
Drew: An interesting broad net you're casting then.
 
Wendy: Very much so and trying to find individuals that fit the mix. And I guess the more challenging part is then building a team where all of those different types of individuals come together and can work. It's a challenge, but one I'm actually really looking forward to seeing an outcome in.
 
Drew: There's obviously a lot of opportunity in there for career progression. But also, I'm guessing that career progression for you has worked out because you've been able to see the future for want of a better description, and grasp it and apply it.
 
Wendy: I think it's more people need to understand the opportunities that exist. For me, I think I've had the opportunities work across multiple programs and across all three services as well. I think what people need to do is look at their careers and don't think I have to be this, or I have to be here. It's about if you can take a job, and sometimes some of them don't make sense, or they're not the best programs to work on, but they're the best experiences because you continue to build your arsenal of information and your ability to then, you know, the next problem, how to solve that differently. So, I think that's where people need to understand that an opportunity may not present itself black and white, but it's amazing how you can turn some opportunities into, you know, future opportunities, which happened for me, in a lot of cases. For me, working on different programs allowed me to network significantly in the business and then met quite a few different people and got involved in different aspects. Sometimes you just need to maybe deviate away to actually, you know, look for the future.
 
Drew: And is that diversity of opportunity and multiple challenges that brings central to what you like working with defence and BAE Systems Australia?
 
Wendy: Certainly, within BAE, the opportunities to be able to grow and to experience something different. You know, you certainly have a lot of those opportunities. And, you know, I've worked in bids, and I've worked in the research and development. Defence, I think with the technology is probably what drives me. I've always been around defence. My family's been in defence. For me, I sort of look at what we do is, if you can't physically serve, you can at least give the people that serve, the best products and the best opportunities to operate safely and efficiently. So, technology is probably what drives me a lot. 
 
Drew: You've had quite a bit go on in your career. What do you reckon the best career advice is you've received. 
 
Wendy: So the best career advice I received, actually, was from a colonel who told me, when I was looking to sort of start managing and getting into teams, he told me that the best way for me to look good was to have a great team working for me, because if they're working well, then I look good, and that's pretty much been the one thing I've really sort of stood behind my entire career, is that if I've got a high performing group, they will make me look good every day. And if that's the case, then hopefully the rest will take care of itself.
 
Drew: Lastly, what advice Wendy, would you have for anyone considering a career in defence, or with BAE Systems Australia?
 
Wendy: Certainly, working in defence, there's a lot of opportunities. As I said, I think people need to understand it is not a traditional engineer; you have to be this, you have to be that. It is the opportunities for everybody with different skill sets to be able to contribute. And I think that's the key thing. And from a BAE perspective, the business is always looking to develop people. If you can understand where you want to get to, the business is really, really keen to develop people for longer term. I think that's one of the advantages working, certainly in defence, because you do have programs that can go for, you know, 20 years. I've worked with generations of people in the business, because you have that opportunity to go forward. There are people still in primary school now who will work on this program long beyond when I'm not working for the business. And that's what I think defence gives you the opportunity.
 
Drew: Well, Wendy, it certainly sounds like you've had the opportunity for development and also giving that to many others in the process. For now, though. Wendy, Through Life Support Director for the Hunter Class Frigate Program, thank you so much for taking the time and giving some insights to your career and the work that you do on this Beneath the Deck podcast. 
 
Wendy: Thank you very much for your time. Thanks Drew.

Transcript

Drew: Careers often end up in a different place from where they started. Few though, would be as tangential as going from years in a dance studio to working on the Hunter Class Frigate Program. G’day, I’m Drew Radford and this is actually the career of Sonja, whose job as Technical Governance Lead actually depends heavily on skills she developed as an artist. To discuss this unique crossover, she joins us for this Beneath the Deck podcast. Sonja, thanks for your time.

Sonja: Thanks for having me.

Drew: Sonja, you’ve got a really varied career – you’ve worked in the oil and gas industry, and now BAE Systems Australia. But when you left school to go to uni, you studied in an area that was totally unrelated. What was that?

Sonja: Yeah, so I did a Bachelor of Performance Arts, and I was majoring in contemporary choreography.

Drew: A dancer by trade, for want of a better description.

Sonja: Yes, yeah.

Drew: I would imagine that’s quite a demanding course on your body, to say the least.

Sonja: Yeah, it was very physically and psychologically demanding, but worth every minute of it. Three years of a very hard slog, but loved it.

Drew: Loved it and the hard slog, and then out of it though I’d imagine it’s a pretty competitive space to try and find a career following on from that.

Sonja: Yeah, especially in Australia it is a very specialised area, and you have to be the best of the best to have a consistent career in that industry, so it was very difficult to try and make a mark post getting my Bachelor’s degree, but I learnt a lot from it and I wouldn’t trade that degree for the world.

Drew: In terms of learning a lot from it, you work in a very technical area now – it says it in your job title – but doing that degree and what you focused on, you mentioned there “psychologically demanding” and also, I’m guessing, about communication as well. So, there’s a lot of intensity going on there – focus.

Sonja: Yeah, yeah, so from a psychological perspective, one of my aims as a contemporary choreographer was to try and communicate issues and I guess, more taboo things that the human experience goes through. So, researching issues that some people face, like drug addiction and the like, it can be quite confronting, and trying to work out a way to communicate that through choreography, through music, through costuming, lighting, staging, anything and everything that goes into a show. Trying to communicate that so people would understand and connect with it on a different level that what they normally would if it was just brought up in conversation. It was very rewarding, but it was a lot of effort that goes into communicate and express things. I think that’s the most beautiful thing about art is that that’s what, at its core, it’s trying to do.

Drew: It is, and you’ve described that really, really well. And in terms of that communication, I’m guessing that’s something that’s been central to your career from then on. But also, that attention to detail.

Sonja: Yeah, so absolutely. Communication and attention to detail are probably the most valuable skills I have, and I’ve taken those through every role that I’ve had since leaving uni, and they’ve served me extremely well.

Drew: Well, they have served you extremely well. And I want to talk about that career path a little bit, because there’s those two themes that are central to what you’ve been doing. The other one seems to be water. You’ve worked organisations around water but when you worked out that, maybe, you couldn’t pursue a future in dance, you seemed to leave the water behind in a fairly drastic way – where did you go?

Sonja: Yeah, I, through a series of events, landed in Tenant Creek in the middle of the Northern Territory, so it was quite the sea change from the coast of Australia to the middle. But, it turned out that that was a great move for me and my career, because I landed working in an organisation called Julalikari Council Aboriginal Corporation, and there was a gentleman there who was the director of community services, and he took me under his wing and he let me learn quite a bit from him with regards to what was happening in that space and I assisted him with pulling together some events around some of the Indigenous community. It was really eye-opening.

Drew: I imagine, too, that there was again a lot of attention to detail and administrative stuff that you started to learn that you’ve carried forward.

Sonja: Yes, that’s kind of when I started dabbling in the administrative side of things – sitting in an office. Very different to choreographing and being under a lot of physical demand, but I found that very intellectually interesting, and that kind of started to spark an interest in the business world.

Drew: It did, because from there you headed north.

Sonja: Yes.

Drew: To a diving company.

Sonja: Yes.

Drew: But this wasn’t recreational diving by any stretch of the imagination from what I understand.

Sonja: No, recreational diving in Darwin is a little bit hazardous, given that you’ve got a lot of crocodiles up there.

Drew: Fairly dangerous.

Sonja: Yeah, it was for a commercial diving company.

Drew: What do they do?

Sonja: They do a lot of hull inspections for vessels, they also did quite a bit on clearing unexploded ordinance that’s in the harbour in Darwin. I guess the bulk of it was doing inspections on hulls and anodes and the like on vessels that were docked in Darwin getting their maintenance done.

Drew: The maritime journey begins really, for you.

Sonja: Absolutely, I fell in love with it and a lot of the team up there, they started to teach me about all the different things, deshackles and anodes and what happens and stuff like that. And I started helping them with writing reports and I went on to become the document controller for the whole business unit, which is across the country, there’s a few bases for them. Onshore works only though, I wasn’t part of the offshore works. And they also invested in me and helped me get my Cert IV in Workplace Health and Safety and became the Darwin site Health Safety Environment and Quality representative.

Drew: I’d imagine throughout your career you’ve had to do quite a bit of up-skilling, to say the least.

Sonja: Yeah, but I think that’s great – I think that’s something people should do their entire career, is continue to grow and learn, and push themselves.

Drew: I’m going to follow the maritime theme for you because you ended up in Adelaide with the submarine corporation, so I’m imaging that there’s a whole lot of stuff that you learnt in Darwin that gave you some sort of insight and understanding that was transferrable.

Sonja: Yeah, I think that was kind of my 'in', if I can put it like that. When I first started, I took a role as a document controller in the CM/DM team, which is configuration management/data management. And fortunately for me, they saw that because I had previous history with the marine oil and gas industry, and document control history, that I could transfer those skills over and become a valued part of the team. And luckily for me, CM/DM was actually part of the engineering department, so it was a great introduction.

Drew: Okay, so you’re sort of moving upwards and sideways along the way, and getting closer and closer to engineering – does that require more education?

Sonja: Yeah, it does, and once again I was very blessed to be taken under the wing of an engineering manager in platform systems on the Air Warfare Destroyer program. And he asked me if I wanted to become a back-up for the cataloguing officer in engineering, and I jumped at the opportunity, and was fascinated with NATO stock numbers, which is a bit geeky, I guess. But whilst I was there, there were a couple of key engineers that I was working with and helping out, that just tried to impart as much knowledge as possible to me, because they could see that I wanted to learn. And they taught me things about how to read diagrams and engineering drawings, and they taught me about system readiness reviews, and the background and foundations of what I was actually doing, as opposed to just giving me a task and saying “just do this, don’t worry about what it means” – I was very blessed.

Drew: In terms of what it means, I’m guessing you’re saying ‘right, well this job is important because you’re keeping people safe or that piece of equipment won’t fail’. Is that kind of what you were being given insight into?

Sonja: Yeah, absolutely. I wasn’t just being taught about mechanics of the equipment that we were designing and building. I was also being taught about how that fits into the bigger picture. The fact that the company isn’t just providing a piece of equipment to a company and that’s it – we’re actually helping to provide the best equipment possible for the men and women that serve our country and enable them to do their best job. They literally put their life on the line for us, and it’s important that we are providing them with equipment that works properly and is safe and allows them to focus on the job at hand and not worry about the equipment that they’re having to use.

Drew: I think that’s a remarkable description that really encapsulates the role of so many people that support the pointy end.

Sonja: Yes, yeah absolutely. I think people sometimes lose focus of that. Work gets really bust and you get really down in the weeds of the tasks that you’ve got to do, but I think it’s important to, every now and then, take a step back and look at the bigger picture – the fact that you’re part of something bigger than yourself.

Drew: You think that helps make you good at your job? In terms of seeing the bigger picture, or is it the fine detail or is it both?

Sonja: It’s both. Absolutely it’s both, you have to be able to get into the weeds, but you have to also remember to take a step back and look at how your piece fits into the puzzle. You can’t have a full picture without everybody putting in their piece, but if you’re only focusing on your piece and you don’t take into account that you’re one piece in a thousand piece puzzle, then you run the risk of not working very well with others and not actually providing what is needed.

Drew: That’s a good description, because you are working in a thousand-piece puzzle, and we’ll get to that in a moment. I’d say it’s probably about a 30–40-thousand-piece puzzle. It’s very, very big. But you’re very positive about your career today. There must have been some challenges along the way. And I’d imagine leaving the performing arts would have been the first and biggest hurdle.

Sonja: That was very challenging, I had a bit of a crisis of personality, I guess. It made me question who I am and my place in the world and my passions and that was very tough. But over time, I came to realise that you can be more than one thing, and change is inevitable – every life goes through change and morphs and grows, and coming to accept that and enjoy it, really, enjoy the fact that you kind of morph through your experiences. Coming to that place was really helpful.

Drew: Morphing is a good way of describing your career path, I’d argue, because now you’re Technical Governance Lead on the Hunter program with BAE Systems Australia. I’ve got to be honest: what does the title of ‘Technical Governance Lead’ mean?

Sonja: Yeah, when I first got the job – when I was hired by this incredible man named Robin, he explained my role to me as the ‘glue’ and I was like “okay, what do you mean?” I’m the glue? And he expressed the role as one that brings people together and helps translate the information that is needing to be passed between departments and the like. He also explained to me that what is needed when you’re building something so complex and has quite a lot of risks around it, and needing to make sure that it’s safe, legal, and compliant – whether it be compliant with the requirements of the design, or compliant with legislation, regulation, that sort of thing, is we have to make sure we check ourselves at the appropriate times and we’re honest and take a good look at what we’re doing, how we’re doing it, and if it is the most efficient, effective, valuable way of designing and building a ship. And so, I kind of took that and went “alright, I’m glue and I make sure that we are having the right checks in place at the right time”. I guess you can kind of sum up my role like that. It’s much more complicated and technical, but you can kind of sum it in that way.

Drew: I think you summed it up pretty well, and I’ve got a reasonable idea of what’s going on there and the ‘glue’ role sounds like you’re drawing heavily, again, on communication and technical skills.

Sonja: Yes, yeah I have to be able to sit down with a software engineer or a weapons engineer and listen to them, listen to understand is key, and then be able to take that information and explain it to someone in, say, supply chain, or someone in quality, or HR, or even our Customer, and vice versa. So, it’s really about listening to understand and then being able to translate that information to whichever stakeholder I happen to be needing to engage with.

Drew: I reckon my head would explode at the end of the day. You’re constantly learning and trying to be on top of something totally new quite often, I’d imagine.

Sonja: Yeah, but that’s the beauty of it – I’m never bored!

Drew: No, I’d imagine not, but again you’re having to up-skill and re-skill I mean you’re talking to software engineers a second ago and you’ve been talking about, you know, marine engineers and whoever else. They’re different languages.

Sonja: Absolutely, I am doing a Diploma of Digital Technology, but aside from formal education, I find one of the best ways to learn is asking questions to the people that are subject matter experts. So, I ask and sometimes people can get a little bit annoyed, but they know it’s all in good spirit. I ask a lot of questions, and I try very hard to listen to what they’re saying and if I don’t understand something, I ask and I don’t worry about whether it’s perceived to be a dumb question or not, the only way you’re going to learn is by asking questions and engaging with people and watching them do what they do, and when you get the opportunity to do something you jump at it.

Drew: You said there a second ago, people sometimes get a bit annoyed because of constantly asking questions – is that part of maybe a misconception about your role, that they don’t fully understand where you fit, or is it just people are busy?

Sonja: I think it could sometimes be a little bit of both. When I’m starting a relationship with someone at work, they generally don’t too much of an idea about what a Technical Governance Lead does, and I don’t hold that against them at all. It can be a bit confusing and the title doesn’t exactly say ‘this is what I do’ so it can be a little bit confusing straight off the bat, but once you generate that relationship and you have conversations and you get to know each other and you get to know what each other does, it more comes down to being busy. But at the end of the day, everybody just has patience with each other. We all understand that we’re all just trying to do our best and do the job that we’ve got, and we all need to work together in order for the big picture to come together.

Drew: What do you like about working with Defence?

Sonja: I like the fact that it is something bigger than me. There’s a motivational speaker – his name’s Simon Sinek – I find him extremely knowledgeable and something that he talks about is having a ‘just cause’ and a ‘why’ that you work towards. And for me, I love working in Defence because the Defence industry is made up of people that risk their lives and they do everything they can to, not only protect the people of this country, but also help people in times of need. It’s a good reason ‘why’ it’s a ‘just cause’, it’s something that I feel I can get behind and is worth the sacrifice of my time, or whatever it may be, but it’s worthy. Does that make sense?

Drew: It makes perfect sense. You’ve mentioned a few times you’ve had, been fortunate to have people take you under their wing and that’s been really important in your career path. What do you reckon the best career advice is you’ve received along the way?

Sonja: One would be ‘listen to understand’, not listen to respond. It sounds logical, but you find that a lot of people in everyday life will just be listening to what you’re saying just to respond and keep the conversation going as opposed to listening to understand what you are genuinely trying to say. So, I think that’s probably one piece of advice that I would offer everybody. And I think the other thing is it’s okay to ask for help. Don’t try and solve everything yourself. Surround yourself with people that are smarter than you, know different things to you, and build that intellectual diversity so that you’re constantly intellectually challenging yourself and others.

Drew: Lastly Sonja, what advice would you have for anyone considering a career in Defence?

Sonja: Do it. You will love it. I have never looked back, I think it’s the most rewarding job I’ve had because it’s not really a job – you’re part of a team, you’re part of a family, and at the end of the day you’re helping.

Drew: Well Sonja, it sounds like you are doing a remarkable job of helping and your career just seems to go from strength to strength. You gave me some amazing insights and all the best through your career from here on in. But Sonja, Technical Governance Lead on the Hunter program, thank you for joining me for this Beneath the Deck podcast.

Sonja: Thank you so much for having me, it’s been wonderful.

Transcript

Drew: To build the largest ever surface ship project in Australia’s defence history requires a huge workforce with skills ranging from welders right through to computer programmers. Hello, I’m Drew Radford and finding these people, employing them and keeping them is easier said than done. It requires careers people with unique insights and experience. And that pretty much describes Ashleigh, who heads up early careers at BAE Systems Australia. His own career has seen him move from fitter-and-turner to science teacher to schools career counsellor and a range of other roles in between. To discuss how this has moulded his approach in helping others achieve their own career potential at BAE Systems Australia, he joins us for this Beneath the Deck podcast. Ashleigh, thanks for your time.

Ashleigh: No problems, thanks very much for having me, Drew.

Drew: Ashleigh, we’re going to talk about the important work that you do in early careers and get people engaged in careers. I’m really fascinated with your background, because for want of a better description, you’ve got metal running through your veins, you’ve got grease under your nails because you were a teacher, now you work in careers, but you were doing something vastly different originally when you got out of school.

Ashleigh: Yes, certainly I had a couple of different career changes, you know if I go right back to the beginning and talk about school – I enjoyed it, it was okay, I was looking forward to the end of it but I didn’t have any idea as to what it is that I really wanted to do. So, I went down to the local car manufacturer at Mitsubishi Motors and put my name down for an apprenticeship. It was sort of that easy back in the day. But yes, I undertook my apprenticeship at Mitsubishi Motors as a fitter and turner, spent probably 8 or 9 years working predominantly in the trades space and in the last few years of my time at Mitsubishi I was in the apprentice trades training centre, so training a lot of apprentices, which I really enjoyed. As you know Mitsubishi closed down, and so I saw that as a bit of an opportunity to go off onto another career path.

Drew: Somewhat aligned, it sounds like a stepping process – you understand the importance of manufacturing, but then your next step was actually solidly into education I understand.

Ashleigh: Yeah, so I went into education, I went in as a teacher. Like I said, I really enjoyed working with the apprentices and young people, and sort of saw that as a bit of a steppingstone for myself. I remember going back home and telling the folks what I was about to do, and I think they flipped over backwards and said well you never really enjoyed school, so why would you want to be a teacher. I guess that was part of my motivation because I didn’t really enjoy school, but I could really see the value and importance of it once I had been out there in that work environment. So, four years of a teaching degree, and then I found myself having 10-12 years teaching in the STEM based areas, so maths, science and technology. 

Drew: So was that important in terms of you were in the STEM area, but I imagine the students who would be able to refer to real-world examples like when you were on the manufacturing floor – that bit of maths that we’re talking about now actually had this application. 

Ashleigh: Yeah exactly. My teaching was all around my previous career that I’d had, and I tried to always use real-world examples within my teaching to make those connections with what it is we’re teaching, so they can actually see where it’s being used, they can see some real-life application to it. I think that was sort of what informed my teaching but I think the other thing that I really enjoyed and I found quite useful was to just be able to have conversations with the students – you know, just to be able to talk to them about what careers were like, what it was like to be in a working environment, what it was like to be a tradesperson, and to experience all that and all those opportunities that that offers, because I think those conversations that you can have with the students is where the real learning begins. We’re in an age now where you can find out all the knowledge you want it’s in your hip pocket sitting on your phone – but how do you actually go and use that information. And I think that was really important to have with young people.

Drew: You’ve clearly put your money where your mouth is for want of a better description, because in your last school-based environment you had the title of Director of Learning Pathways – what did that actually mean, it sounds like you were connecting those dots.

Ashleigh: Yeah, that was a really good opportunity that came up. So, it’s all about working with the students at the school to develop a pathway through school – so looking at their subject selections and having a real understanding about what they wanted to achieve when they were starting to leave school. It was looking at all the vocational educational opportunities which are available, you know school-based apprenticeships or traineeships, it was looking at all the university programs which are available for school students to begin while they are at school so they can get that head-start on their career. With the conversations that I’d had, and I’d had a lot of conversations about student pathways, and one of the things students often get asked, or we ask our own kids ‘what do you want to do when you grow up or what do you want to be’, and I always tried to avoid asking that, because I think a better question to ask is ‘what are you interested in and what do you like doing’ because that can then really sort form that career you may like to pursue. If you’re actually doing something that you enjoy, there’s an old saying that you won’t work a day in your life, but you’ll also be better at it as well.

Drew: Ashleigh, it very much sounds like you’re living by that mantra yourself – I also get the impression that your role is very rewarding.

Ashleigh: Yeah, it is rewarding when you can look back and see what students have been able to achieve and what they have picked up from those conversations that you have. I think that is one of the really rewarding parts of my role at the moment at BAE and the early careers section. I now start to see apprentices and I see graduates and so when you’re working in the school setting you work with the students for a couple of years and then graduation night happens, and you generally don’t see them again. You might see them walking down the street and they’ll say ‘hello’ and ‘how are you going’. Now that I’m in the career that I’m in I actually see I guess the fruits of everybody’s labour because I see the students coming through, and how they’ve developed, and they’re taking that first step on their career journey.

Drew: You are a great illustration of someone who has gone through one in terms of re-skilling, but you’re passionate about the transferable skills, and maybe that’s better language than re-skilling.

Ashleigh: The reason why I like the term transferrable skills is really whatever it is you’re doing; you’re learning something and you’re developing a skills within it. You could be playing in a football team or a school sport team, you can be part of a dance group or drama club. You could maybe be a carer or maybe volunteering somewhere, but you’re always developing skills while you’re doing that. A lot of young people’s first job is working at a takeaway outlet and if you think about the skills that you’re developing there, you know you’re developing your communications skills, your problem solving, you’re multitasking, you’re developing some conflict resolution skills and all of that adds up, and I think it’s really important to be able to recognise that, so that when you are applying for a job somewhere that you highlight them, because these really are the employability skills and the soft skills that we keep talking about that you know, employers are looking for.

Drew: Well in terms of that, how did you make the step from, you’ve gone from fitter and turner to schoolteacher, to now working in early careers with BAE Systems. What was the motivation to make that move?

Ashleigh: I’m a bit of an advocate for life-long learning, and I sort of did the 10-15 years as a tradesperson, I was sort of coming up to that 15 year or so as a school teacher, and I was just starting to think what’s next for me and then I saw the job advertised at BAE leading the early careers program, and knowing that was all about the apprenticeship pathways and graduate pathways and everything in between, I thought I’ve got something that I can offer there, and that was the next opportunity for me to go away and learn something. You know, I’ve never worked in the defence industry, although I have worked in manufacturing, so I felt as though I had quite a good background there, but for me it was to take that next step and learn something new again.

Drew: You’ve painted a bit of a picture of what you’re doing in that space – it sounds quite broad though, it sounds like everything from school leavers through to university graduates, and I understand even adults who are wanting to change career.

Ashleigh: I guess everybody, you look at your job description you probably think I do 50% of that and everything else sort of comes in on top of it. But yes, certainly early careers the way I see it, an early career doesn’t need to necessarily be for a young person, it can be someone starting out in a new career and it’s early for them. I guess the thing is, it’s a bit of an employee’s market at the moment isn’t it when we’re talking about the skills shortage and everybody is after someone to come and work for them, whether that’s at a café or a defence business like us. So, it’s really looking, how can we look away from those traditional areas of attracting people to the business. You know, graduates have been the traditional pathway for someone to enter into that non-trade area, apprentices have been that traditional pathway to enter into a trade, but I think we’re sort of at a time now where we really need to start to look outside the square, if you like, to start to attract people into the business, people into employment and so we’re looking at things like adult apprentices, reskilling current workers, how do we connect earlier with our university graduates, through you know, internship programs, you know we’ve also got traineeships through vocational education which is I think an untapped market when we’re starting to look at those non-trade areas as well. And so, just being able to look at all the different opportunities that there are around to develop a workforce.

Drew: What do you enjoy most about your current role?

Ashleigh: Probably what I really enjoy most is well I work with a fantastic team to begin with – the team is really skilled in what they do – as I’ve sort of mentioned, we have a team that work in that vocational education pathway, and another on the other side of the team is looking at the tertiary education side of things. So that’s great ,I’ve got an awesome team, but I think the other part that I really like is seeing that we can actually provide opportunity for young people, you know for some of them it could be their first job and starting their career, for others it could be that shift in a career that perhaps they’ve been looking for, or it might be somebody that’s sort of been floating around the employment market for a little while, and now we can actually provide them with stable employment and a job for life essentially. We’ve sort of used the term ‘generational employment’ where potentially some of our apprentice’s kids could be working on the same project.

Drew: Well, somebody might start at BAE Systems Australia doing one particular job, but because it’s such a big organisation they can have a career path like you that’s more through many different avenues along the way.

Ashleigh: Yeah, that’s right, you know we’re always considering how we can I guess improve the pathways through our workforce. Some people are really happy to be working in that same role, they come in day in day out, and that’s what they want to do, and that’s fine but we might have some other people that are always looking for that next challenge or that next learning opportunity. So, I think as a business and someone of our size it’s really important that we can offer those opportunities for our workforce, because there’s this whole transferrable skill and transferrable knowledge, you know you’re going to bring that with you. You consider someone that’s been working as a tradesperson out on the shopfloor for you know 10, 15 years and they then decide that it’s time for them to move into maybe a bit more of an engineering detail design sort of pathway, then they’re going to bring all of that knowledge with them and that’s not going to be lost. So, it’s looking at providing those opportunities for everyone.

Drew: It sounds like you and your team have a really important role within the business – you’re feeding the belly of the beast for want of a better description. You’ve got the labour force to build these amazing ships, what do you wish others in the organisation knew about what you and your team do?

Ashleigh: I think it’s about we’re there to work with everybody in the organisation. Obviously, we’re the early careers team and we can provide graduates and interns and trainees etc. but the other thing that we can really do is to work with other teams or other functions as we call them within the business, to help them develop their own early careers programs. They know what type of skill they need, the type of person that they need to operate within their function, and so we can help them, we can support that to develop those pathways within those functions. You know, I think if we can sort of work more as a bigger team than working in isolation then that’s only going to benefit the company and you know, like I’ve said, and everyone keeps talking about the skills shortage – once again it’s about how you can actually provide an opportunity for someone that perhaps is a little bit different to traditional pathways.

Drew: Ashleigh, you’ve mentioned at the moment things are particularly tight in terms of there’s a smaller number of potential employees, is that the greatest challenge you and your team are facing at the moment, or are there other things?

Ashleigh: It is a great challenge, I think the other challenge for us is, if you consider the life and time of this project, you know generational employment, that’s mean that people that are of quite a young age, we’re going to be looking at them to come and work for us and get into the manufacturing space. And you know, with Mitsubishi and Holden closing down, we did lose quite a bit of that manufacturing capability and so I think it’s really important that all businesses get out into the school systems and actually really start to promote what’s out there for the young people, because we’re really going to rely on the young people – and when I say young people I’m talking about those that are in sort of years 5 and 6 to have an understanding about the job opportunities that are out there. I’m not saying that they need to know what they want to do, but they just need to know what work is all about, that South Australia has some great opportunities ahead in the defence sector, you know you can talk about others areas as well – hydrogen is going to be huge for South Australia, you know we’ve got some great projects which are happening, North-South corridor, we’ve got new hospitals being built and so there is a great deal of opportunity out there and we’re all going to be vying for the same person really, and so getting out there and promoting this within our young people I think is really, really important.

Drew: Is that what’s motivating you a little bit, too? It sounds almost competitive to some extent.

Ashleigh: What’s motivating me is to getting out there to actually show these opportunities and promote these opportunities and see young people actually start to consider these STEM based careers and STEM based learning. School was okay for me, but did I really enjoy the whole STEM side of things? No, not really, but that’s where the opportunities are and I think that is really what we need to be promoting within our young people, and I guess that’s what motivates me is to be able to get out there and say ‘hey, look perhaps it wasn’t really for me, but look what you can actually achieve when you do see that as the opportunity’. Tuesday I was out there with one of our engineers and she was presenting to a group of young girls from the area, and she mentioned exactly the same thing that she wanted to be an engineer but her mathematics skills were not where they needed to be, but she pursued it and she kept working and taking up opportunities to learn more, and now she’s an engineer and listening  to some of the projects she’s worked on, she’s had a fantastic career so far and you know it’s only going to get better for her.

Drew: Ashleigh, you’ve been through a few different sectors in your career, you’re now with defence – what do you like about working with defence?

Ashleigh: Opportunity. Opportunity for employment, but to just do some different things when you consider the vast range of jobs that actually need to be undertaken to get these ships in the water and for people to live on them, there’s lots of opportunities and lots of different things people can do to get involved.

Drew: Well, there are lots of opportunities, what skills do you reckon are most important then in a modern workplace?

Ashleigh: I’m a bit advocate in employing for potential and I think in order to be able to do that, young people really need to consider those employability skills and those soft skills that I’ve spoke about before – you know being able to problem solve, to communicate, to work in a team, to critically and creatively be able to think, those are the skills that are going to be needed now and into the future. Knowledge is readily available but it’s how you go about using that knowledge and what you use it for and how do you decipher that knowledge and information, I really do think that the employability skills, although it’s not exciting, people do often say to me look what do I need to do to get a job there, and I start talking about the soft skills and the employability skills and like I said it’s not exciting, but it really is important and I think anybody can develop those skills. You know, some people are naturally quite gifted at the mathematics side of things, but I think that everybody can develop those employability skills.

Drew: Ashleigh, that’s great insight and you’ve been very generous with your time and talking about what you’ve learnt throughout your career and how you’re helping the next generation develop. What’s the best career advice you’ve received?

Ashleigh: Continue learning. Continue learning and take opportunity, you know if you see that there’s an opportunity there and you sort of feel as though you’d like to take it up, just take the plunge and step in and have a go at it, you don’t want to look back, you don’t want to die wondering. The great thing about where we are at the moment as a state and as a country, is that we have opportunity to change career, you know we’ve got some great educational systems which can pick you up at any time to change careers, to continue learning, if it doesn’t turn out, you haven’t lost anything – you’ve learnt something and then you grab that next opportunity as it comes along.

Drew: Ashleigh, you’ve been really generous with your time and great with your insights, and it sounds like you have a really satisfying career in terms of helping people find a path and career. Ashleigh, Program Lead – Early Careers, thank you for joining us in BAE Systems studio for this Beneath the Deck podcast.

Ashleigh: No problems at all, thank you very much for having me and I’ve enjoyed the conversation.